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Questions and discussions involving PGF

by crashsdaddy » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:24 am

PDad wrote:I recommend checking the PGF National Qualifier & Championship info page to see how teams got their berths.


All one has to do is look at that page to see that most of the teams currently listed are invited.

27 of 45 teams invited for 18U Premier.
26 of 39 teams invited for 16U.

That's more than a third of the teams getting in based on reputation and jersey logos and you know there will be more invites handed out before its done. A number of those teams probably couldn't get there if they had to play a qualifier but PGF wants their organizations represented as it "validates" PGF. PGF said the invites would stop after two years, we're now on year four. Why are they still inviting teams unless they were concerned they couldn't get enough of the "right" teams there without them.

And no, I'm not Pro ASA/Anti PGF. I tried to get my DD's coach to make a run at a PGF qualifier but he hasn't gone for it yet. :(
Last edited by crashsdaddy on Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by crashsdaddy » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:38 am

AlwaysImprove wrote:For me, PGF favors teams, specifically competitive teams. This includes competitive teams across the nation. From the FC, Socal A' to the Jersey Intensity, East Cobb Bullets, Team North Florida, Washington Ladyhawks.

ASA more favors umpires, and the umpires desire for a free samwich.

Both hand out invites. PGF is just a more competitive field, and more optimized for teams. ASA is more optimized for umpires and dragging you to a remote location where they can maximize cash extraction.


All organizations with great reputations but not all of their teams are great. Some teams are getting in based in jersey logos, not quality of play. Invites were handed out to organizations that picked a team to represent at PGF.

Also, are you saying the PGF umps buy their own meals? Pay their own way in hotels costs? If so, how do they get the good umps? Good will? Though I don't know for a fact, I'd bet the reality is that PGF does just as much for their umps as ASA does.
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by AlwaysImprove » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:47 am

crashsdaddy wrote:
PDad wrote:I recommend checking the PGF National Qualifier & Championship info page to see how teams got their berths.


All one has to do is look at that page to see that most of the teams currently listed are invited.

27 of 45 teams invited for 18U Premier.
26 of 39 teams invited for 16U.

That's more than a third of 18U and half of 16U getting in based on reputation and jersey logos and you know there will be more invites handed out before its done. A number of those teams probably couldn't get there if they had to play a qualifier but PGF wants their organizations represented as it "validates" PGF. PGF said the invites would stop after two years, we're now on year four. Why are they still inviting teams unless they were concerned they couldn't get enough of the "right" teams there without them.

And no, I'm not Pro ASA/Anti PGF. I tried to get my DD's coach to make a run at a PGF qualifier but he hasn't gone for it yet. :(

So now you are trying to get more competitive teams to back your teams move. ASA invites as many teams as PGF, they just do it quietly behind the scenes, based on what favors the umpires that run ASA. Usually those are teams that are willing to help ASA lock you in a remote out of the way city for as many days as possible to maximize tournament profit.

PGF is open about their invites because most teams are tuned in enough to see they are using their invites to increase the competitiveness of their tournament. The competitive landscape of fastpitch changes pretty quickly. PGF organizers know more about more teams. They actively go watch a ton of softball. They hear from the older more competitive teams. They actively try to get those teams in their tournament.

PGF was started as a response to ASA not listening, even a little, to teams.
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by AlwaysImprove » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:06 am

crashsdaddy wrote:
AlwaysImprove wrote:For me, PGF favors teams, specifically competitive teams. This includes competitive teams across the nation. From the FC, Socal A' to the Jersey Intensity, East Cobb Bullets, Team North Florida, Washington Ladyhawks.

ASA more favors umpires, and the umpires desire for a free samwich.

Both hand out invites. PGF is just a more competitive field, and more optimized for teams. ASA is more optimized for umpires and dragging you to a remote location where they can maximize cash extraction.


All organizations with great reputations but not all of their teams are great. Some teams are getting in based in jersey logos, not quality of play. Invites were handed out to organizations that picked a team to represent at PGF.

Also, are you saying the PGF umps buy their own meals? Pay their own way in hotels costs? If so, how do they get the good umps? Good will? Though I don't know for a fact, I'd bet the reality is that PGF does just as much for their umps as ASA does.

Ah, now see you have hit upon it. PGF treats their umpires just fine. They pay them. They probably even give them lunch.

Honestly, I don't know, and don't quite frankly care. I want the ump to show up and do their job, call balls and strikes, apply the rules of the game, and get paid a decent wage to do it. That does not mean you have to optimize a tournament completely around umpires. Which then frees you up to do the right things for teams and players and their families.

Where ASA broke down was having umpires run the tournaments, then run the organization. Actually that was not totally bad.

When it really broke down as when two cities woke up about 15 years ago and realized that ASA is a weak political structure, and can be easily manipulated. Those cities were Johnson City TN, and Midland TX.

Those cities realized they was an $$ opportunity in ASA. The parks and rec managers for these cities moved in to ASA voting positions. They gamed the ASA bidding and tournament selection process. They then cut pacts between themselves and usually third entity, like Montgomery Alabama, or Soux City IA. Through this process they were able to steer ASA tournament selections to their towns.

The reason Johnson City and Midland were so strong in this process was their Convention and Visitors bureau's in those two cities control 98% of the hotel rooms. So they are able to control pricing on hotel rooms, and it is many hours round trip to the next bunch of hotel inventory. You are in a 150 a night hotel room that would normally go for 75, and at 75 would be 20% occupied that time of the year.

Now they have you locked in a completely price controlled environment. Then they work ASA to maximize the number of team room nights. The hotels provide ASA with free, and upgraded rooms, free meeting rooms, beer and samwiches. All paid for by your jacking the prices and number of days to stay in your room.

Umpires don't care, as they like the longer vacation and free beer and samwiches. ASA don't care because it is a 'political' system. Only the teams get the downside. That was why PGF was formed.
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by crashsdaddy » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:56 am

AlwaysImprove wrote:PGF is open about their invites because most teams are tuned in enough to see they are using their invites to increase the competitiveness of their tournament. The competitive landscape of fastpitch changes pretty quickly. PGF organizers know more about more teams. They actively go watch a ton of softball. They hear from the older more competitive teams. They actively try to get those teams in their tournament.

PGF was started as a response to ASA not listening, even a little, to teams.


They can't actively keep tabs on all teams year in and year out. As you pointed out, the landscape changes too quickly. Also, established organizations look after their own first, other org's second, and upstarts last so their input is inherently biased. I agree that the absolute top few teams are justified in being there. Beyond that, its just a guessing game by a select few and if their opinion was so exacting, why have qualifiers at all? Why even hold a tournament? Just hand out the order of finish as they see fit.

Why is it so hard to drop the invite process and make everyone earn a spot through a qualifier? Maybe because invites buy favoritism from top organizations?
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by ontheblack » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:00 am

crashsdaddy wrote:
AlwaysImprove wrote:PGF is open about their invites because most teams are tuned in enough to see they are using their invites to increase the competitiveness of their tournament. The competitive landscape of fastpitch changes pretty quickly. PGF organizers know more about more teams. They actively go watch a ton of softball. They hear from the older more competitive teams. They actively try to get those teams in their tournament.

PGF was started as a response to ASA not listening, even a little, to teams.


They can't actively keep tabs on all teams year in and year out. As you pointed out, the landscape changes too quickly. Also, established organizations look after their own first, other org's second, and upstarts last so their input is inherently biased. I agree that the absolute top few teams are justified in being there. Beyond that, its just a guessing game by a select few and if their opinion was so exacting, why have qualifiers at all? Why even hold a tournament? Just hand out the order of finish as they see fit.

Why is it so hard to drop the invite process and make everyone earn a spot through a qualifier? Maybe because invites buy favoritism from top organizations?


These teams would still attend the qualifiers if they didnt get an invite.
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by crashsdaddy » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:10 am

AlwaysImprove wrote:Umpires don't care, as they like the longer vacation and free beer and samwiches. ASA don't care because it is a 'political' system. Only the teams get the downside. That was why PGF was formed.


I don't think the umps call a few days in the sun in Midland, TX and getting a few free beers and sandwiches a vacation.

As my DD came into fastpitch, I never quite understood why ASA existed in the form that it does. Their all encompassing umbrella across men's, women's, coed, fastpitch, slowpitch, etc. seemed top heavy. No way they could be doing what's right for any one them by focusing on all of them. The ASA rule book for example is a disaster because of it.

Also, I do get the location issue on the whole. HB is pretty nice in July. However, beyond that one issue of location, all other issues looks petty to a lot of people. Invites just make the whole affair look like a fastpitch power grab by a few people in SoCal and location was just the cover story and invites were a means to an end. That's why some people are so hung up on the invites. Get ride of them and most everyone would shut up.
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by crashsdaddy » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:12 am

ontheblack wrote:These teams would still attend the qualifiers if they didnt get an invite.


No, not so. Some of those coaches didn't get invites last year and played ASA. Also, just because they got an invite, it does not guaranty they would win a berth at a qualifier.
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by AlwaysImprove » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:40 am

crashsdaddy wrote:
AlwaysImprove wrote:PGF is open about their invites because most teams are tuned in enough to see they are using their invites to increase the competitiveness of their tournament. The competitive landscape of fastpitch changes pretty quickly. PGF organizers know more about more teams. They actively go watch a ton of softball. They hear from the older more competitive teams. They actively try to get those teams in their tournament.

PGF was started as a response to ASA not listening, even a little, to teams.


They can't actively keep tabs on all teams year in and year out. As you pointed out, the landscape changes too quickly. Also, established organizations look after their own first, other org's second, and upstarts last so their input is inherently biased. I agree that the absolute top few teams are justified in being there. Beyond that, its just a guessing game by a select few and if their opinion was so exacting, why have qualifiers at all? Why even hold a tournament? Just hand out the order of finish as they see fit.

Why is it so hard to drop the invite process and make everyone earn a spot through a qualifier? Maybe because invites buy favoritism from top organizations?

Ask ASA why invite process is not dropped. They been doing this for years, and still hand out tons of invites.

ASA hands out invites to pump up their numbers. I have seen years where they took the field from 70 teams to 150 teams with invites. 150 teams get's everyone to stay in town 2 extra days. ASA invites are for cash. Now you have to play ton's of teams that are not even A ball teams. It's a wreck.

PGF hands out invites to try and get more competitive teams. I'll take the PGF approach any day.

As far as talent assessment. It is easily checked. Look at the teams that are getting great players signed to competitive teams. The PGF guys definitely stay on top of who is playing great ball.

There have been numerous posters on here point that one team or another is on an invite and they stink. Everytime, every single time, that team has gone on to run through all the great talent at Colorado Independence day, and finish deep at PGF. Not a single time has PGF gotten it wrong. If you have counter example, bring it up.
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by AlwaysImprove » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:42 am

crashsdaddy wrote:
AlwaysImprove wrote:Umpires don't care, as they like the longer vacation and free beer and samwiches. ASA don't care because it is a 'political' system. Only the teams get the downside. That was why PGF was formed.


I don't think the umps call a few days in the sun in Midland, TX and getting a few free beers and sandwiches a vacation.

As my DD came into fastpitch, I never quite understood why ASA existed in the form that it does. Their all encompassing umbrella across men's, women's, coed, fastpitch, slowpitch, etc. seemed top heavy. No way they could be doing what's right for any one them by focusing on all of them. The ASA rule book for example is a disaster because of it.

Also, I do get the location issue on the whole. HB is pretty nice in July. However, beyond that one issue of location, all other issues looks petty to a lot of people. Invites just make the whole affair look like a fastpitch power grab by a few people in SoCal and location was just the cover story and invites were a means to an end. That's why some people are so hung up on the invites. Get ride of them and most everyone would shut up.

Great, you think it boils down to only invites, that it is petty and that it is a Good Old boys network, you should join the 150 teams 70 of which are on invites and not even A ball teams at ASA nationals. Enjoy your trip. Competitive teams will be at PGF.
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