Were can I find Obstruction ruling

[golfer]

This is the situation. Bases are loaded with 1 out. Batter hits the ball down 1st base line and the pitcher fields the ball and tags the girl out going to first base. The girl on 3rd scores. The girl that was on 2nd runs to 3rd and the 3rd basemen is covering the bag. The pitcher is about 20 feet from home plate when she tags the girl out running to first. The coach at 3rd base tells the girl to run into the 3rd basemen and they both fell to the ground. When the base runner gets up the coach tells her to run home, even though the pitcher is 20 feet from home plate. The pitcher tags the girl out going home. The 3rd base coach is saying that since the runner was knocked down when she got to 3 base she should be allow home without being called out. If this is the situation then every time a runner hits the ball for a base hit than they should run into the basemen and be rewarded the next base without any consequences. What should happen?? Should the runner be called out? Should the runner have to go back to 3rd base without being called out? Or should the runner get home base? Where can I find the answer?

[MTR]

Speaking ASA

This is the situation. Bases are loaded with 1 out. Batter hits the ball down 1st base line and the pitcher fields the ball and tags the girl out going to first base. The girl on 3rd scores. The girl that was on 2nd runs to 3rd and the 3rd basemen is covering the bag. The pitcher is about 20 feet from home plate when she tags the girl out running to first. The coach at 3rd base tells the girl to run into the 3rd basemen and they both fell to the ground.

That may be OBS, would have to see it. If the runner went out of her way to get the OBS, it probably isn't, otherwise if F5 impeded the progress of the runner, it is OBS. Umpire calls DDB. The runner cannot be put out between the two bases where she was OBS. Once retired or all play is finished, the umpire should kill play and award the OBS runner (and any other runner affected by the OBS) the base she would have reached safely had the OBS not occurred. THERE IS NO ADDITIONAL PENALTY for OBS.

When the base runner gets up the coach tells her to run home, even though the pitcher is 20 feet from home plate. The pitcher tags the girl out going home. The 3rd base coach is saying that since the runner was knocked down when she got to 3 base she should be allow home without being called out. If this is the situation then every time a runner hits the ball for a base hit than they should run into the basemen and be rewarded the next base without any consequences. What should happen??

Well, that depends on where F5 obstructed the runner.

Should the runner be called out? Should the runner have to go back to 3rd base without being called out? Or should the runner get home base? Where can I find the answer?

If R2 was OBS after touching 3B, the runner could be awarded home or 3B. If OBS prior to passing 3B, she can be called out at the plate if the umpire only protected the runner to 3B (most likely in the given scenario). If only protected to 3B and the runner is put out between 3B & home, the runner is out. Sending her back to 3B is NOT an option.

From you post, I would think the runner being called out is the correct call.

[ajaywill]

MTR nailed the correct ruling (as usual), but I would like to add something based on a comment made in the OP.

If I, as an umpire, heard a coach tell a runner to "run into" someone, not only am I not going to call obstruction, I am having a little chat with that coach and asking him/her not to do that again.

That type of behavior can lead directly to an injury to either the runner or the fielder or both. deliberate actions like that have no place on the field.

[GIMNEPIWO]

MTR nailed the correct ruling (as usual), but I would like to add something based on a comment made in the OP.

If I, as an umpire, heard a coach tell a runner to "run into" someone, not only am I not going to call obstruction, I am having a little chat with that coach and asking him/her not to do that again.

That type of behavior can lead directly to an injury to either the runner or the fielder or both. deliberate actions like that have no place on the field.

Just for the sake of argument ... Suppose F5 is in the basepath without the ball as stated in the OP ... The Coach tells his player 'not to run into' her, and she doesn't ... What do you have ? ... *Around here it is hard to get an OBS call with contact, let alone without ... I am not saying I would tell a girl to take out a player ... But players need to understand that they have the right to run the bases in this situation and it is not their job to avoid contact caused by a fielder ...

* I say this based on observations as a Coach, a Blue and a fan ...

[MTR]

Just for the sake of argument ... Suppose F5 is in the basepath without the ball as stated in the OP ... The Coach tells his player 'not to run into' her, and she doesn't ... What do you have ? ...

OBS, maybe **

*Around here it is hard to get an OBS call with contact, let alone without ...

Then you need to find some softball umpires who have the courage to call the game and stop using the baseball guys looking to make extra money working "baseball for girls"

I am not saying I would tell a girl to take out a player ... But players need to understand that they have the right to run the bases in this situation and it is not their job to avoid contact caused by a fielder ...

Well, yeah, it sort of is. The runner does have the right of way over a fielder without the ball or fielding a batted ball, but there is, also, no excuse for intentional contact in the game of softball. If a player intentionally runs over/through the defender, I would eject her as soon as the play is over. If there is any possible play that could have been made by that defender, the runner may be subject to being ruled out for INT and any other runner returned.

** I say maybe because if, IMJ, the runner intentionally moves toward a runner trying to draw OBS, she is no longer attempting to proceed to the base, therefore, the runner is not being impeded by the defender.

[GIMNEPIWO]

Just for the sake of argument ... Suppose F5 is in the basepath without the ball as stated in the OP ... The Coach tells his player 'not to run into' her, and she doesn't ... What do you have ? ...

OBS, maybe **

Of course, HTBT ... But you know as well as I do that fewer OBS calls are made when there is not contact ...

*Around here it is hard to get an OBS call with contact, let alone without ...

Then you need to find some softball umpires who have the courage to call the game and stop using the baseball guys looking to make extra money working "baseball for girls"

Courage. Cojones or knowledge ... maybe a few more scrubs should actually open the book

I am not saying I would tell a girl to take out a player ... But players need to understand that they have the right to run the bases in this situation and it is not their job to avoid contact caused by a fielder ...

Well, yeah, it sort of is. The runner does have the right of way over a fielder without the ball or fielding a batted ball, but there is, also, no excuse for intentional contact in the game of softball. If a player intentionally runs over/through the defender, I would eject her as soon as the play is over. If there is any possible play that could have been made by that defender, the runner may be subject to being ruled out for INT and any other runner returned.

Like I said, I wouldn't tell a base runner to take out a defender ... But without teaching them the difference of who has the right of way and when, the difference between OBS and INT ... You are just asking for trouble ... I wouldn't do what the coach in the OP did, but in a practice I would make sure they knew when they had the right to their base path and not ... And if the defender is in their base path and guilty of OBS, isn't it she who you could possibly be ejecting for intentional contact ?

** I say maybe because if, IMJ, the runner intentionally moves toward a runner trying to draw OBS, she is no longer attempting to proceed to the base, therefore, the runner is not being impeded by the defender.

of course

I have got to figure out how you do that seperate quote thingy ...

[MTR]

Of course, HTBT ... But you know as well as I do that fewer OBS calls are made when there is not contact ...

I couldn't disagree more. OBS is one of the easiest and safest call for an umpire to make. An umpire who refuses to make the call without contact is not a good umpire, has applied a personal opinion to the game where it should not be and unfair to all involve.

And I will make that call anywhere in any game, whether a local game or a championship game in the stadium, and I have.

Courage. Cojones or knowledge ... maybe a few more scrubs should actually open the book

Its simply a matter of doing the job for which the umpire is accepting payment.

Like I said, I wouldn't tell a base runner to take out a defender ... But without teaching them the difference of who has the right of way and when, the difference between OBS and INT ... You are just asking for trouble ... I wouldn't do what the coach in the OP did, but in a practice I would make sure they knew when they had the right to their base path and not ... And if the defender is in their base path and guilty of OBS, isn't it she who you could possibly be ejecting for intentional contact ?

Hell, no. If a catcher steps up to short-catch a pitch, should the batter be right to crack the catcher in the back because she has the right to hit the pitch? AND THEN EJECT THE CATCHER!

There are rules in place to protect that runner's right to advance, not carte blanche to take action into their own hands. The teams must depend on the umpires to do their job, another reason that umpires that don't are doing a disservice to everyone AND the game of softball.

And if you ever have an umpire tell you s/he didn't rule OBS because there wasn't contact, protest the game as that is definitely a misinterpretation of the rule.

[GIMNEPIWO]

Of course, HTBT ... But you know as well as I do that fewer OBS calls are made when there is not contact ...

I couldn't disagree more. OBS is one of the easiest and safest call for an umpire to make. An umpire who refuses to make the call without contact is not a good umpire, has applied a personal opinion to the game where it should not be and unfair to all involve.

I agree with you 100 % ...

And I will make that call anywhere in any game, whether a local game or a championship game in the stadium, and I have.

That's because you are not a scrub ...

Courage. Cojones or knowledge ... maybe a few more scrubs should actually open the book

Its simply a matter of doing the job for which the umpire is accepting payment.

'Accepting payment' is NO indication that someone is 'doing a job', just look around ...

Like I said, I wouldn't tell a base runner to take out a defender ... But without teaching them the difference of who has the right of way and when, the difference between OBS and INT ... You are just asking for trouble ... I wouldn't do what the coach in the OP did, but in a practice I would make sure they knew when they had the right to their base path and not ... And if the defender is in their base path and guilty of OBS, isn't it she who you could possibly be ejecting for intentional contact ?

Hell, no. If a catcher steps up to short-catch a pitch, should the batter be right to crack the catcher in the back because she has the right to hit the pitch? AND THEN EJECT THE CATCHER!

You know, or should know that I was not referring to a situation such as you described here ... BUT, if the Backstop steps up and out of the catchers box and in the act of trying to hit the pitch, my batter accidentally clubs the catcher ... Shouldn't she be taught in advance that this was not her fault and she has not interfered, but rather the catcher has obstructed ?

There are rules in place to protect that runner's right to advance, not carte blanche to take action into their own hands. The teams must depend on the umpires to do their job, another reason that umpires that don't are doing a disservice to everyone AND the game of softball.

Never said there were not rules in place and never said that a runner should 'take action into their own hands ' ... But I did indicate that there are Umpires who are reluctant to call, or do not call, or are ignorant of what OBS, and for that mattter INT are and when to call them ... But, feel free to quote me to the contrary

And if you ever have an umpire tell you s/he didn't rule OBS because there wasn't contact, protest the game as that is definitely a misinterpretation of the rule.

Unless, of course, they say " In my judgement " ...

[MTR]

Its simply a matter of doing the job for which the umpire is accepting payment.

'Accepting payment' is NO indication that someone is 'doing a job', just look around ...

You misunderstand. I'm stating the umpire is simply supposed to do the job for which they are being paid, not make up things as they go along or just "wing it" if unsure or disagree with the rules under which the game is being played.

Like I said, I wouldn't tell a base runner to take out a defender ... But without teaching them the difference of who has the right of way and when, the difference between OBS and INT ... You are just asking for trouble ... I wouldn't do what the coach in the OP did, but in a practice I would make sure they knew when they had the right to their base path and not ... And if the defender is in their base path and guilty of OBS, isn't it she who you could possibly be ejecting for intentional contact ?

Hell, no. If a catcher steps up to short-catch a pitch, should the batter be right to crack the catcher in the back because she has the right to hit the pitch? AND THEN EJECT THE CATCHER!

You know, or should know that I was not referring to a situation such as you described here ... BUT, if the Backstop steps up and out of the catchers box and in the act of trying to hit the pitch, my batter accidentally clubs the catcher ... Shouldn't she be taught in advance that this was not her fault and she has not interfered, but rather the catcher has obstructed ?

And my point, albeit exaggerated, is that one player being wrong does not absolve another from playing the game in a sportsmanlike manner within the rules of the game.

There are rules in place to protect that runner's right to advance, not carte blanche to take action into their own hands. The teams must depend on the umpires to do their job, another reason that umpires that don't are doing a disservice to everyone AND the game of softball.

Never said there were not rules in place and never said that a runner should 'take action into their own hands ' ... But I did indicate that there are Umpires who are reluctant to call, or do not call, or are ignorant of what OBS, and for that mattter INT are and when to call them ... But, feel free to quote me to the contrary

While not directly contrary, you did seem to suggest that it would be permissible to make unnecessary contact with a player standing in the wrong place.

And if you ever have an umpire tell you s/he didn't rule OBS because there wasn't contact, protest the game as that is definitely a misinterpretation of the rule.

Unless, of course, they say " In my judgement " ...

[/quote]

Actually, it is not. If the umpire is stating that the OBS was not called because there wasn't contact shows that the umpire is not congnizant of the rule or has elected to ignore the rule which is not a judgment call.

[Iluvblue]

xample:
runner on 1st, bunt and run is put on, ball is thrown to f4 covering 1st base, ss is covering 2nd base without the ball. R1 is attempting to reach 3rd base. The ss is standing on 2nd base so the runner changes her path and runs around her, she is thrown out at 3rd base a,d 99 times out of 100 NOBODY is calling obstruction because it is happening so fast and the blue did not see it.

Now my runners wont run around that runner and they will be falling to the ground because of the contact that would take place because they are not going to change the path they should be taking to get to third. Now 98 out of 100 we are going to get the obstruction call because after the contact, the blindest of the blind can see a kid on the ground and they will know what happened.

Now you umpires can now come and say you will toss me from game, and a good umpire doesnt need to have contact to call it and blah blah blah, but as a coach, I know what the reality is, and if my runner changes her path to 3rd, we will be out at third..... period. So we need to coach for real world situations and not what is supposed to happen.

We won an ASA 16u NQ in OHIO about 7 years ago on the exact play described above. And the crowd on the opposing team was furious that our runner "ran into the ss on purpose" to which I reply.... heck yeah she did, but only because your ss was standing in her way.

From the OP, I seriously doubt a coach was screaming at his runner to run into f5, but if he were and she changed her path to specifically run into a player that was not in her way, that is probably getting the coach ejected.