another missed base scenario

[Imperial SB Dad]

So, if this is the proper way to do it, why is a play home plate different? I believe that if there is a play at home and the runner misses the plate there is no call made at all. Is this correct?

[Sean Jordan]

@MTR I understand the game don't understand how you penalize a defense for making an out. Firstbaseman has her foot on the bag with the ball at same time base is missed. in my opinion wether or not the runner would have beat the throw, fact is first base is a force out and that runner never made it to the base. Asking a 10 yr old girl who is concentrating on catching a ball to know that the base was missed, to appeal, place a tag, step on the base AGAIN is rediculous. All having to be done before the runner gets back to first. Thats why we have coaches who can call time out and appeal that the base was missed and the foot was on the bag should be an out.

[ajaywill]

@MTR I understand the game don't understand how you penalize a defense for making an out. Firstbaseman has her foot on the bag with the ball at same time base is missed. in my opinion wether or not the runner would have beat the throw, fact is first base is a force out and that runner never made it to the base. Asking a 10 yr old girl who is concentrating on catching a ball to know that the base was missed, to appeal, place a tag, step on the base AGAIN is rediculous. All having to be done before the runner gets back to first. Thats why we have coaches who can call time out and appeal that the base was missed and the foot was on the bag should be an out.

Your opinion is duly noted.

The applicable rule and proper procedure to appeal the play has been explained to you.

Your opinion and the rule do not coincide.

[Bretman]

So, if this is the proper way to do it, why is a play home plate different? I believe that if there is a play at home and the runner misses the plate there is no call made at all. Is this correct?

You have it right...for baseball. There, if the defender misses the tag and the runner misses home plate, the umpire is instructed to make no signal.

In softball, on this same play the umpire is instructed to pause momentarily and see if the runner is going to try to touch home, then give a safe signal. The safe signal isn't intended to mean that the runner touched the plate. Rather, it is a ruling on the tag attempt by the defense which was unsuccessful.

Why are they different? These are just the standard mechanics that have evolved over the years. The "powers that be" have decided that such plays should be handled in a uniform manner and this is the manner they have come up with. They are different between the two sports and each method has it's pros and cons.

The baseball philosophy is to let the players resolve the play themselves without any input from the umpire. The softball side feels that giving no signal could be seen as tipping off the defense that the plate was missed, alerting them to a possible appeal that they should recognize on their own.

[HugoTafurst]

Clint I was with your thinking on this, gal has her foot on bag runner never touches it, boom force out at first. This is a stupid rule.

Let's see. You agree with Clint, who has NEVER umpirerd softball and the only umpiring he did was 20 years ago.... and that was baseball.

And you don't stop to study the actual rules and mechanics involved, nor do you accept the word of those who are actively studying and officiating the game of softball....

And you call the rule STUPID???

[MTR]

@MTR I understand the game don't understand how you penalize a defense for making an out.

No, they did not. If they had, there would be no discussion.

Firstbaseman has her foot on the bag with the ball at same time base is missed.

Actually, that was not the scenario offered.

in my opinion wether or not the runner would have beat the throw, fact is first base is a force out and that runner never made it to the base.

0 for 2 in one sentence.

Asking a 10 yr old girl who is concentrating on catching a ball to know that the base was missed, to appeal, place a tag, step on the base AGAIN is rediculous. All having to be done before the runner gets back to first. Thats why we have coaches who can call time out and appeal that the base was missed and the foot was on the bag should be an out.

Not only that, but it isn't ridiculous either. It is the game that you claim to understand. The rules are there for BOTH teams regardless of age. Maybe the consideration should be given to the poor 10yo runner who is try so hard to get to the base, she may have missed it by a few inches. It is all relative and, BTW, the same with all games and most rule sets.

I can tell you as a fact, all the information you have been provided by myself an at least three other umpires in this thread, softball and baseball, are accurate and apparently not what you think it is.

Guess I'll be seeing you in Dallas next November so you can set everybody straight.

[clintbos]

Well, Clint, it's a good thing you told us you didn't look up the rule. Because you couldn't be more wrong.

Suggest you forget what you think you know, and read the rule. The softball rule, since we aren't discussing baseball. There is no (and I repeat NO) force out at first base as defined in any softball rule book. Any time, any play, no exceptions.

I was confident that I didn't need to read the rulebook...there are alot of different rules in Softball but overall both games are very similiar.


Old ASA Rulebook but I can't imagine it changing....

Rule 8 - Batter-Runner and Runner

Section 7 The Runner is Out

G. When the runner fails to touch the intervening base or bases in regular or reverse order and the ball is returned to an infielder and properly appealed. If the runner put out is the batter-runner at first base, or any other runner forced to advance because the batter became a batter-runner, THIS IS A FORCE OUT.

[clintbos]

Might want to check out...

Rule 8 Batter Runner and Runner

Effect Sections F-I

2. Live ball appeal
3. Dead ball appeal

[clintbos]

Also Take a look at...

Points Of Emphasis

1. Appeals

B. Live - In all games an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if he is still on the playing field.

[MTR]

Well, Clint, it's a good thing you told us you didn't look up the rule. Because you couldn't be more wrong.

Suggest you forget what you think you know, and read the rule. The softball rule, since we aren't discussing baseball. There is no (and I repeat NO) force out at first base as defined in any softball rule book. Any time, any play, no exceptions.

I was confident that I didn't need to read the rulebook...there are alot of different rules in Softball but overall both games are very similiar.


Old ASA Rulebook but I can't imagine it changing....

Rule 8 - Batter-Runner and Runner

Section 7 The Runner is Out

G. When the runner fails to touch the intervening base or bases in regular or reverse order and the ball is returned to an infielder and properly appealed. If the runner put out is the batter-runner at first base, or any other runner forced to advance because the batter became a batter-runner, THIS IS A FORCE OUT.

Yes, Section 7 refers to the RUNNER. Go read rule 1.