Pat Robertson on Haiti

[Skarp]

Ummm, so you admit we have the resources to take care of the people in our country....ummmm, but you are against universal healthcare...interesting. I guess the hundreds of thousands of individuals struggling to make ends meet and forego medication to put food on the table in the U.S. did not get the memo that we have the resources to take care of them....just saying!

Who is this "we" you are talking about? The United States isn't a commune. You can only get to "we have the resources" by redefining individual property as collective property. Or, in a word, by enslavement.

Rather funny that you think that's moral high ground you're standing on...

(But still love you too, snookums)

[Skarp]

But my dear Skarp, although I truly lust you, this makes me a little sick......the so called world power (USA) turning its back on a country so desperately in need because it does not serve "our national interests" (I assume you mean monetarily or in payback in the future).....well, I guess we will have to disagree on this one, babe. But, I still love you!

Lots of people in lots of places desperately need our help. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of people live in abject poverty (about 5.9 billion if the Dem poverty line is used), lacking food, medicine, education, basic sanitation, flat screen televisions, etc. As the so-called world power, I suppose the U.S. is morally obligated to save them all, right?

This country has helped so many, for so long, that, rather than being appreciated, it is now viewed as our exclusive obligation. Now we're asked why we didn't do more, by those who don't do squat.

In any event, the idea that the government of a nation-state should make decisions based on notions of moral obligation to anyone other than its own citizenry is a manifest absurdity. Such a government is acting contrary to the very purpose for which it was constituted. We're pretty much the only people on earth who don't understand this as a matter of course. Which is why we're also the world's laughing stock.

[Dugout Dad]

Yeah......except I'm from Jersey!!!! My mom and dad are registered repubs like me......But, we now all vote Dems in whenever possible.....GWB made us all see the light

You are going to allow one person, GWB, change your core beliefs. You claim to be a registered Republican but vote Dem because of Bush? Sounds like some real anger issues and you need to get over it, Bush is gone.

[coolstuff]

Getting back to this thread, and wow, really went off the tracks didn't it? Well, here's a few of my observations but first a comment.

Amongst much of the talk about the Haitian "pact with the devil," we Americans actually owe a debt of thanks to the Haitian slaves who revolted against Napoleon. Without Haiti and its resources, Napoleon lost interest in the "New World." When the US approached Napoleon about purchasing the port of New Orleans, Napoleon counter-offered with what would become known as the Louisiana Purchase as a way of recouping the loss of Haiti.

On to religious topics: In a nutshell, what the Bible both OT and NT attempts to teach us is that there are consequences for our actions. The Hebrews in the OT believed that God was the author of everything and was active and present in history. So they attributed everything - even the weather - on God's actions as His blessing or wrath as the case may be. But the Bible also teaches us that God makes rain on the righteous and the wicked. So is rain for the crops a blessing if the wicked benefit? Is a drought God's wrath if the righteous suffer? Surely there was at least one righteous person in Port-au-Prince who suffered from the earthquake. In speaking about a tsunami, Bishop NT Wright once said, "A tectonic plate's got to do what a tectonic plate's got to do." I strongly believe that an earthquake is not the consequence of sin, it's just how God made this planet to behave, and He has never promised us that things would be easy here, regardless of what Joel Osteen wants you to believe. But He did promise comfort, love, forgiveness and grace, and continually reminds us that there are consequences for our choices.

On the question of helping the less fortunate: Do you really believe that the rich nations are "tapped out?" Or is it that we have chosen to only give to a degree that doesn't negatively inmpact our own lifestyle? Yes, there is enough to eliminate hunger and poverty and to help in situations such as the current one in Haiti. I'm not talking about making everyone wealthy, just eliminate hunger and poverty and respond to disasters. And I'm not talking about only Americans - all the wealthy developed nations of the world including the Saudis and Europeans and Australians and Japanese and Chinese and anyone else I'm not remembering - no one has truly given until it hurts, and that includes me too. We selfishly guard our lifestyles and throw a few dollars at the problems to make ourselves feel good.

Off soapbox for now.

[THE MAD-DOG99]

Sorry Fan...you might understand history in your terms , but you don't understand reality...

Generally that is why the "liberal" tag is placed, stating opinion without facts. The same people that march and protest America, then get in their car, pick up the kids and go to dinner never understanding the cost paid for their freedom..

Not a whole lot of Americans lining up to move to Pakistan last I checked, but lets go ahead and complain on how the U.S. handles policy..

America's greatest strength is also it's greatest weakness..Americans are complacent, lazy and complain without ever wanting to take action..people as you say..struggling to get by...?

The late great George Carlin said it best..." people complain about unemployment being 7%..?
It's a known fact that 12% of the population is illiterate..I am worried about those 5% that have a job.."

Work harder...get an education...

Universal Heathcare...Food Stamps for medicine...
Give something to someone who doesn't want to work for it...
Is the U.S. perfect..? of course not..but ironically before you make another blanket statement
check out Canada's universal heathcare...then check out how much money we give them as opposed to any return..
Another country that complains about the U.S., yet could get it's ass kicked by South Dakota..!!

Comparing Africa to Iraq...?

As others have said, we are always the first to help , but can't solve everyones problems..
Is it about self interest for the U.S...? Absolutely..against any country that wants to kill our population..

Should we intervene in a country that cannot finance a cheeseburger or one that finances terrorism..?

One that could not build a giant paper plane or one that builds missles pointed at us or our allies..?

Sorry, not always the most popular choice, but the right one..

And the people complaining about it....the ones enjoying their freedom...

[Skarp]

On the question of helping the less fortunate: Do you really believe that the rich nations are "tapped out?" Or is it that we have chosen to only give to a degree that doesn't negatively inmpact our own lifestyle? Yes, there is enough to eliminate hunger and poverty and to help in situations such as the current one in Haiti. I'm not talking about making everyone wealthy, just eliminate hunger and poverty and respond to disasters. And I'm not talking about only Americans - all the wealthy developed nations of the world including the Saudis and Europeans and Australians and Japanese and Chinese and anyone else I'm not remembering - no one has truly given until it hurts, and that includes me too. We selfishly guard our lifestyles and throw a few dollars at the problems to make ourselves feel good.

Off soapbox for now.

First, America and Americans are the most generous country/people by a country mile. If you expect any other country to give meaningfully at all, let alone until it hurts, you're flat out dreaming. If you expect us to give more, well...F you if you want to do it at the end of a gun (i.e., via taxation).

Second, it is a fundamental law of economics that if you subsidize something, you will get more of that thing. Pay people who are impoverished, and you get more people who make poverty inducing decisions (like having more kids when they can't feed the ones they have). Remove the consequences of bad decisions, and you remove the most important incentive for people to make good ones. This is why you cannot buy off poverty. It's been tried everywhere. Including here.

[coolstuff]

First, America and Americans are the most generous country/people by a country mile. If you expect any other country to give meaningfully at all, let alone until it hurts, you're flat out dreaming. If you expect us to give more, well...F you if you want to do it at the end of a gun (i.e., via taxation).

Second, it is a fundamental law of economics that if you subsidize something, you will get more of that thing. Pay people who are impoverished, and you get more people who make poverty inducing decisions (like having more kids when they can't feed the ones they have). Remove the consequences of bad decisions, and you remove the most important incentive for people to make good ones. This is why you cannot buy off poverty. It's been tried everywhere. Including here.

Your post illustrates my point quite well. Thank you!

[SoCalASABlue]

"Yes, there is enough to eliminate hunger and poverty and to help in situations such as the current one in Haiti. I'm not talking about making everyone wealthy, just eliminate hunger and poverty and respond to disasters. And I'm not talking about only Americans - all the wealthy developed nations of the world including the Saudis and Europeans and Australians and Japanese and Chinese and anyone else I'm not remembering - no one has truly given until it hurts, and that includes me too. We selfishly guard our lifestyles and throw a few dollars at the problems to make ourselves feel good."

A few questions, if I may...

How do we end hunger? How do we end poverty? Don't you think - since we are always told that we still have these two conditions in our own country - that we should handle them here first? But again - how? Trillions of tax dollars (adjusted for inflation) have been spent since LBJ's Great Society went into effect. How much more is needed? And who are we supposed to trust to spend it to end those conditions? The U.N.?

And what is the definition of "give until it hurts"? Am I supposed to take food out off my table and give it to others, some of which would like nothing better than slit my throat and wouldn't piss on me if I was on fire?

It's always easier to spend other people's money - how else does a person spend $4 million to get elected to a job that pays $200K a year? The free will God gave every one of us includes the responsibility to take care of yourself and by extension your family - IMHO.

If a person lives in an area where there is no work, then what should that person do? The hard but accurate answer is to either move where there is work or start your own business. I've done it - several times. Is it easy? Hell no. But I still remember the shame of watching my mother pay for groceries with food stamps and I promised myself that would not happen when I became an adult. I don't have a problem with government programs for the truly needy - seniors on a fixed income, families with special needs kids, etc.

But nothing pisses me off more than to watch some woman (dragging four kids around with $100 shoes, cellphones and IPods) pay for her cereal, milk and juice with food stamps - then reel off a $100 bill for the cigarettes and booze.

[access2]

I'll begin with this before giving a thought to this, I am as big a sinner as anyone here on HB or on Haiti.

It may be the Devil himself who is having fun in Haiti as if he were in his own little playground. He may have chosen this place for a reason.

Who knows?

However, we do know what God want us to do in response. That is to be thankfull, pray, love and give; and if they (those who we give to) in turn around and slap us in return, God has told us on how to respond to that, too.

It is a true test for everyone, in Haiti, and for us here comfortably living in this wonderful world of ours. Yes, we are struggling here, too, but we are wealthy in comparison to the rest of the world, thank you Lord- but what is it that Jesus said about the camel going through the eye of a needle?

If this tragedy, and Pat (I admit don't follow him) has us talking about what true Christians responsilities are, then that's is a good thing.

[carolinafan]

First off, I have never protested America or the wars America are presently involved in....I did do a pro choice march when in college down in DC. That was pretty exhilarating. I love my country and appreciate all that has been provided for me by the efforts, and in way too many cases, the deaths of my fellow country men and women. I value my freedoms, yet, will admit to taking them for granted, at times. If we are all going to be honest here, we probably all take the freedom of speech for granted, because we have never known anything differently in our lifetime.

I take offense to the pejorative manner in which so many of you on HB depict "liberal" or democrats. Believe it or not, there are some really good ones......just as there are some really good conservatives and republicans. By placing everyone into the same pot of sh*t, it shows your ignorance for the many facets of our democratic society. I feel strongly in my belief that our country should help as many people as possible who are suffering. Is this a liberal stance? Perhaps, but I prefer to think of it as the right thing to do. Of course there are people who take advantage of the system. I am sure there are some out there having their 7th baby to get more from Uncle Sam....however, there are probably many who are uneducated or ill informed regarding contraceptive methods available to them. I guess I tend to look at the world through rose-colored glasses; hoping that my neighbor would help me out in my time of need.....should I do any less for him/her?