Is this typical (concerning calling illegal pitches)

[jofus]

Pool game Saturday, we were in the dugout getting ready to bat in the first inning, and the opposing pitcher was warming up, and I told my DD and our #1 pitcher to watch her feet, she was getting a little airborne. The base ump was walking towards us (I honestly didn't see him coming), and I guess he overheard me, and told me "I already noticed it, I'm going to take care of it". So, he went and talked to the plate ump, and we started the game. This was USSSA btw, if that matters, and 12U age bracket.

To jump ahead, we played this team again the next day, we came out of the loser's bracket and they came out of the winner's bracket, and she was pitching again. We had played 3 games in about 5 1/2 hours in 90 degree heat, they had played one, and we only had 9 players, so our chances of beating them twice in a row were slim at best. Plus, she wasn't amazingly fast, we should have killed the ball, and in fact did so a little better in the second game until they pulled her in the 4th inning. The base ump from the first day was the plate ump for the second game. Even though our coaches didn't say a word to the umps about it the first day, since it was a pool game, they did mention it to the (new) base ump on the 2nd day after the first inning.

But, back to the story, her pitching was about as bad as I have seen in a tournament, so I took a pic during the second day...



So, do you think they...

1) Never called it one time in 10 innings of her pitching.
2) Called it once, on the first strike she threw in the first game, and never again in either game.
3) Called it several times throughout the 2 games.
4) Called it every time she did it (which would have been 95% + of her pitches).


If you said 2), then you hit it on the head. After our coach mentioned it to the base ump the second game (to give them one loss and play for the championship), he went and got her coach from the dugout, they both went out and watched her warm up and explained to her what she was doing (I assume)...and it did look like she was trying to fix it during warmups, but once she was pitching to batters, it was the same on every pitch.

I'm just wondering if that is normally what happens? If the only consequence is having her first strike called a ball, why should we bother spending so much time on keeping our pitchers' mechanics legal?

[Martin]

A pitcher is allowed to "get airborne." What is not permitted is for her to land (replant) and push off from this new position.

[jofus]

I'm pretty sure her push foot (whatever you call it) has to maintain contact with the ground in a drag, unless the area in front of the pitcher's plate is dug out, in which case the ump has to decide whether it would be in contact with the ground if the hole wasn't there.

I've seen arguments about whether a motion like my pic helps (or hurts) a pitcher's velocity, but I'm pretty sure it's in the rules that that foot has to stay grounded.

Their third pitcher in the game yesterday actually did "crow-hop", replanting and pushing off from about a foot of so in front of the pitcher's plate, but that's harder to get a picture of.


Edit>> From USSSA rulebook (online), Rule 6, section 1.E.3
"3. The pivot foot may remain in contact with or may push off and drag away from
the pitching plate prior to the front foot touching the ground, as long as the pivot
foot remains in contact with the ground. Pushing off with the pivot foot from a
place other than the pitcher’s plate is illegal.
NOTE 1: It is not a step if the pitcher slides his foot in any direction on the
pitcher’s plate, provided contact is maintained.
NOTE 2: Techniques such as the “crow hop” and “the leap” are illegal."

[NM FP Ump]

Jofus beat me to it------

You say it was a U-trip game? Well, that's a leap (both feet off the ground) and it's illegal. As a base umpire you are in the best position to see that. As a plate umpire you are focused on the hands, the wind up and delivery, so you won't see it. I don't know how quickly this happened (HTBT) but if it was blatant and obvious, I would have to call it (as a BU, not as a PU).

Here's the rule:


RULE 6. PITCHING RULE....
Sec. 1.....
NOTE 2:Techniques such as the "crow hop" and "the leap" are illegal.

[dittoz]

To answer your question - yes this is pretty typicaly - esp at the 12u and under level. I tend to agree with the lack of call - to a point. The kids are young and still trying to learn correct mechanics. He made his call to make a point and let everyone know she's doing it wrong, but if he called it a 2nd or 3rd time, the 12u pitcher would have been destroyed as she worried more about her technique than anything else. I personally would appreciate the mercy of the man in blue - especially in a Sat game...

Now that being said, would this have truly been posted had you been ahead by 10 runs? I'm betting that like our team, it is more aggravating when one is on the losing end of the equation...

Perhaps there should be a choice 5: Did not worry about it because it was not impacting the game.

[jofus]

Dittoz, we didn't hit the ball well, and it wasn't because she was an amazing pitcher or anything (although, she was a lefty, which may have mattered some), and we didn't say a word to the ump in the first game on Saturday. However, IMHO, when you are playing for the championship the next day, and you know that it was pointed out to the coaches the day before, because it was in your game, and they start her anyway and she is still doing it just as badly.....

One ironic thing about the story is, I was talking to one of her coaches before our first game with them (A MOMMYBALL coach, btw , and she was very nice, and was telling me this was their first USSSA game, that they had been playing mainly NSA tournaments. She said they really liked the NSA tournaments cause the umps were very good, especially about calling slappers out of the box and illegal pitches

Their second pitcher in the last game had very good mechanics, and the third (the hardest thrower of the 3) crow-hopped pretty badly.

[almosthuman]

Here in So Cal , enforcement of pitching rules is a joke. Leapers and crow hoppers abound and rarely will you find an umpire calling more than one in an inning or a game yet the mechanics remain the same. The token call typically happens to appease the inquiring coach; the next couple of pitches may look better yet the illegal mechanics remain the same throughout the game with no calls.

When discussing with umpires I have frequently been asked if I want them to watch the feet for illegal pitches or call balls and strikes. My response is, “Watch for illegal pitches.” because the call is a ball and any base runners I may have will advance one base and 95% of the time the pitch is “illegal”. They look confused when I give them my preference and proceed as before.

Umpire failure to call the illegal pitch is the root of the problem. Coaches will not ensure their pitchers’ mechanics are sound if there are no consequences. If the illegal pitch was called every time it occurred, you bet your a** that coaches would make sure it was corrected!

Alas, pitchers will continue to develop years of muscle memory throwing illegal pitches because umpires do not want to call them because of the angry coach response or they do not have the training and skills to call them.

Or… maybe the pitching rules concerning the feet should be scrapped since they are rarely enforced anyway. Even at the highest levels, pitchers tend to throw illegal pitches with very few of them being called. Jennie Finch is prone to “walking” (stepping forward off the rubber with her right foot before delivery). Occasionally she is called for it but not even close to how often she actually does it. Angela Tincher seemed to be doing that every pitch during the WCWS. Cat Osterman appears to re-plant (crow hop) a good three feet in front of the rubber every pitch (her Under Armor commercial shows it in slo-mo).

[umpinva]

So, do you think

I can't see whether she still has the ball. If she has not delivered the pitch and both feet are airborne, I calling an illegal pitch.

[jofus]

ump, the ball is in about between the 12:00 and 1:00 position (just passed vertical going behind her, above her head).

I cropped the picture to not show her face or her team name, or the coaches/players in the background

[wadeintothem]

In a friendly recently I called IP about 7-8 times on one pitcher who was most definately IP'ing.. pretty much shutting her down and disrupting the karma of the game. As with many times, when i enforce the rule, I am the bad guy.

this went to the TD that I was picking on the pitcher.. which went to the UIC..

(Where are you peeps who pretend like you want IP called when its actually being called?)

I received the instrcution, dont make too many waves (I have a reputation somewhat anyway), to just call it once to "teach her" and let it go "its only a friendly".

I didnt call IP at any game after that, only giving warnings. I'm not calling IP just to goof around.

Take it for what its worth.


For the Record: This pitcher was starting with one pitcher back off the plate (like in HS) then stepping forward with the pivot foot on the delivery (technically a crow hop)

level: ASA 18 *cough*cough Gold