another missed base scenario

[MTR]

Do everybody a favor and stay away from umpiring softball.

As much as knowledgeable, qualified and authoritive umpires and instructors have been trying to tell you why the rules are written, how they are written and to interpretated, you insist on applying you own logic and beliefs and telling us we are wrong. It has been noted numerous times how and why your interpretation are inaccurate. It appears you have an old-school baseball mentality which means there may be little chance of changing your opinion. I've seen this for over 45 years of officiating, 15 years of clinics and a dozen years of schools and it is indefensible when trying to explain to a coach/manager as a UIC.

Ruling without a definitive appeal is NOT our opinions, it is specific to the rules for softball and baseball. It isn't your option to rule without a specific request and that very much a protestable situation which the umpire will lose.

It is the umpire's job to officiate any game by the rules under which the teams have elected to play and PAY the umpires. Anything shy of performing as expected and directed is tantamount to accepting funds under false pretenses.

It is my opinion that you refrain from re-entering the field of officiating until you are comfortable adjusting to the present rules and respective interpretations.

[clintbos]

Do everybody a favor and stay away from umpiring softball.

As much as knowledgeable, qualified and authoritive umpires and instructors have been trying to tell you why the rules are written, how they are written and to interpretated, you insist on applying you own logic and beliefs and telling us we are wrong.

I have no idea who you are or anybody else on this thread and this is the first time you have described yourself in that manner. I have been stating rules and how I interpret them not my own logic or beliefs and I don't think I have used the word "wrong" in any of my post. I think you are wrong though just as you think I am wrong hence the discussion thread"

It has been noted numerous times how and why your interpretation are inaccurate.

Go back and look at the post. Several people posted the same exact citations you stated but that did nothing to answer too my rebuttle. Only two people tried to answer my argument with rules that explained to me why yall are thinking the way yall are.

Bretman - with the Rule 8-3-B which I admiitted that I have no idea what that means and I suspect many others do not because if you did then you have to admit that 2/3 of the book is nullified.

Tcannizzo with the Appeal definition. No one will directly speak on POE #1B, Rule 8-7-G and its EFFECT Section F-I #2-Live Appeal, or POE #1L which directly speaks to the play in question. Notice not my belief or logic just asking you the "knowledgeable, qualified and authoritive umpire and instructor" what these rules are talking about and how you interpret these specific rules. The only thing you want me to do is not umpire.

It appears you have an old-school baseball mentality which means there may be little chance of changing your opinion. I've seen this for over 45 years of officiating, 15 years of clinics and a dozen years of schools and it is indefensible when trying to explain to a coach/manager as a UIC.

I agree, I have told umpires I have spoken with I have no idea how they could do both from week to week, I couldn't. I could confidently umpire baseball and stay out of trouble. My daughter's have been involved in softball for 6 years now and I saw my youngest play in 120+ games last year, so with a little work I am also confident I can umpire softball.

Ruling without a definitive appeal is NOT our opinions, it is specific to the rules for softball and baseball. It isn't your option to rule without a specific request and that very much a protestable situation which the umpire will lose.

I also agree but what you don't believe and I do is what the rules stated above constitutes a definitive appeal.

It is my opinion that you refrain from re-entering the field of officiating until you are comfortable adjusting to the present rules and respective interpretations.

I totally agree with your statement...when I go to these clinics and have a discussion on this very play....when my UIC tells me to call her safe as she jumps 3 feet over the bag 1/2 of a second after the ball arrives ...I just don't know if I can take their money and sleep at night.

[clintbos]

This is starting to get rude and as you can see I am not going to back down until someone proves to me I am wrong by citing or telling me how I am interpreting specific rules wrongly. i guess it is the Marine in me. I do appreciate the time everybody took to post and if nothing else it made me read the book getting ready for January. I think we have exhausted this topic and know where everybody stands. Again, Thank you all for trying.

[Battle]

MTR and Others:

At the risk of beating a dead horse here, I have one more question.

If the BR foot is in the air over the bag (satisfying reaching the base) and while in the air, the ball beats her actually touching the base. You would have to assume her “not out” because she actually reached the base before the ball. Therefore, she is not out unless a live ball appeal was made. What kind of appeal would F3 appeal or could it even be appealed? It wasn't a missed base. I can only assume that by your interpetation, she would be assumed "not out" even though the throw actually beat her touching the base.

[tcannizzo]

MTR and Others:

At the risk of beating a dead horse here, I have one more question.

If the BR foot is in the air over the bag (satisfying reaching the base)

There is nothing in the rules that supports this statement, so the remainder of your question is null and void.

Nice try though....

[Comp]

clintbos, I suggest taking your interpretation of this play and posting it on the officiating.com softball forum and see what kind of a response you get. At least 5 if not more umpires on this board have told you your reasoning is incorrect and not supported by the rules. I assure you not a single official on the officiating softball forum will agree with your interpretation.

[Bretman]

Bretman - with the Rule 8-3-B which I admiitted that I have no idea what that means and I suspect many others do not because if you did then you have to admit that 2/3 of the book is nullified.

What it means is that whenever a runner passes a base without touching it, it is treated exactly the same as if she did touch it. Just because the sentence doesn't explicitly state "until properly appealed" doesn't mean that all of the additional rules covering missed bases and the appeal process are null and void. They all still apply. The runner has still committed a baserunning violation, it's just one that cannot be ruled upon by the umpire until properly appealed.

Here's a play for you: Runner on first base. Batter hits safely to the outfield. Runner advances from first to third, however she misses second base on the way. The throw comes in and is cut off by the shortstop. As she walks the ball toward the infield, her foot just happens to brush across second base. Without further action or comment, she then throws the ball back to the pitcher.

Would you consider this a proper appeal and call the runner standing on third out? I certainly hope not! There would be nothing to indicate to the umpire that the defense recognized the missed base. The fielder's foot casually brushing across the base in an inconsequential action not related to any reconizable appeal. The fielder needs to express to the umpire what is actually being appealed.

It's the same on the play at first base. The fielder catching the ball while standing on the base, after the batter-runner has passed the bag, is an inconsequential action with respect to an appeal. It is simply part of the initial effort to retire the batter-runner. A proper appeal requires a further action by the fielder to express to the umpire what is being appealed.

When I go to these clinics and have a discussion on this very play....when my UIC tells me to call her safe as she jumps 3 feet over the bag 1/2 of a second after the ball arrives ...I just don't know if I can take their money and sleep at night.

If the runner misses the base AFTER the ball arrives, she's already out. No one here has suggested otherwise and I doubt that any UIC would either.

[Bretman]

If the BR foot is in the air over the bag (satisfying reaching the base) and while in the air, the ball beats her actually touching the base. You would have to assume her “not out” because she actually reached the base before the ball.

1) This wouldn't be a play covered by the missed base rules because the runner did not miss the base.

2) For the purpose of the play at first being discussed, consider the runner as "reaching the base" when her foot is actually contacting the ground past the front edge of the base.

[Battle]

MTR and Others:

At the risk of beating a dead horse here, I have one more question.

If the BR foot is in the air over the bag (satisfying reaching the base)

There is nothing in the rules that supports this statement, so the remainder of your question is null and void.

Nice try though....

OK, I thought that I had it figured out but now I'm a little confused...I know, “That's not hard to do”. If reaching/making and touching a base is not the same, then how can anything that I have just stated be null and void? You guys are the ones that implied that. Let me ask you this...

You have positioned yourself at 1st. A batted ball has been hit. You are watching the feet and listening for the pop (assuming that's how it's done) at 1st to determine if the BR beats the throw but she misses the base. At what point do you determine whether or not she beat the throw? Is it as her foot breaks the front plain of the base, as her foot is level with the base, or when her foot touches the ground because remember, I said she missed the base? I understand that you are to assume that she touched the base after passing it until a valid live ball appeal has been made.

If you are tired of discussing this, is there another thread somewhere that addresses this issue extensively that I can just read? Because this can't be the first time this has been asked and I feel that I am or will be talking in circles.

[MTR]

You have positioned yourself at 1st. A batted ball has been hit. You are watching the feet and listening for the pop (assuming that's how it's done)

It's not.

at 1st to determine if the BR beats the throw but she misses the base. At what point do you determine whether or not she beat the throw? Is it as her foot breaks the front plain of the base, as her foot is level with the base, or when her foot touches the ground because remember, I said she missed the base? I understand that you are to assume that she touched the base after passing it until a valid live ball appeal has been made.

There is no point in time. You are placing way too much emphasis on a subjective item. IMJ, from the umpire's point of view, the BR reaches the base when it appears that s/he could be touching the base. Remember the different angles the umpire may have on this play, from 45 degrees 12-15 feet away to 90-120 degrees from 70-80 feet aways. I guess the simplest way to put it in layman's terms would be when the foot contacts the ground, on, next to or beyond the base in question.