Speed of pitchers

[Lannie]

Oh, so apparently you only play a team once....... Hmmmmm Now we are getting into the stupid comments...........
Tell you what Ill do..... Ill mention your comment about it being stupid charting pitches to the coach that HAS a college college world series ring ..... Oh' by the way where is your ring?????Just so she will know she is being called stupid by someone that has more knowledge of the game than her..........
Yeah I guess I was mistaken on all those strike 3 looking changeups that she had in the championship game..........
before you flush, maybe you need to send someone to the market to get you some tucks medicated pads to reduce the hemmroid inflamation that seems to have flared up because buddy you seem to have one hangin to your knees........

[Sam]

Oh, so apparently you only play a team once....... Hmmmmm Now we are getting into the stupid comments...........
Tell you what Ill do..... Ill mention your comment about it being stupid charting pitches to the coach that HAS a college college world series ring ..... Oh' by the way where is your ring?????Just so she will know she is being called stupid by someone that has more knowledge of the game than her..........
Yeah I guess I was mistaken on all those strike 3 looking changeups that she had in the championship game..........
before you flush, maybe you need to send someone to the market to get you some tucks medicated pads to reduce the hemmroid inflamation that seems to have flared up because buddy you seem to have one hangin to your knees........

You might play a team more than once, but most of the time you will throw a different pitcher...but lets have some fun and apply your logic to a sport where they ALWAYS track batters vs. pitchers... MLB....if an aging player had trouble catching up with a fastball...according to the charts.....you would call fastballs regardless of who you had on the mound....Joba Chamberlain or Jamie Moyer....which is why MLB charts pitcher vs batter because a pitcher will face a batter up to 20 ABs during a season. You might see a batter 6 times during a year long softball season....mostly you are trying to play different teams. Its not enough to identify a trend. You can tell your college coach friend all you want....it may make sense for them to chart pitches because they get a player for four years and they see players for four years. Getting a ring is all about recruiting talent....the coaches on the college level routinely destroy batters' swings (Candrea is an exception).

Everbody saw strike three changeups from Mowatt....that were all set up by other pitches.

You might possibly be the most ignorant poster on this board that acts like they know what they are talking about. I'm just explaining that to the other posters....no offense intended...just stating fact.

[ssarge]

Mowatt beat Tennessee with just 2 pitches....... The change up and screwball..........

Yeah.

You can probably beat just about anybody with just about ANY two pitches. . . . .

. . . . .As long as ONE of them is a world class change-up - like Mowatt's.


The CHANGE of speed (from a consistent release) is BY FAR the hardest adjustment for a hitter to make. And it doesn't need to be a 15mph delta, either. There are pitchers who can throw essentially the same pitch over a speed range (using grip, or guile, or whatever) of say 58-64. Essentially throwing the same pitch with that kind of variance. Pithers such as this are astonishingly effective. Add a change-up to it, and they are someone like Mowatt that week - throwing 1,000+ pitches to the best hitters in the country, and having about 10 of them hit solidly.


Seriously. Location, movement, etc. All great weapons for a pitcher. But THE toughest adjustment for a hitter is the change of speed.

Regards,

Scott

[Sparky Guy]

Ok here they are, and mind you they both have the same arsenel:

Fastball= high outside
Change = slow roller
Drop= just bad
Screw= one of them throws this well
Curve= the other one throws this well
Screw change = again one throws this well
Rise= Catcher refuses to give the sign, she hates running to the backstop to get it.
Drop curve= By this time I'm overwhelmed and never call it.

Ok... I've been reading through all these posts and I have to comment.

First... A pitcher can throw a screw, drop, curve, rise, change, or fastball. THAT IS IT!!!!!!!

Second... Changing speeds on a pitch is NOT a different pitch. It is still the same pitch. That is called pitching when you try and confuse the hitters timing with a speed and location change on the same pitch.

I have been through the mill with my daughter. She graduated college(DII) last spring and paid her way through it with her pitching. The only pitches she had was a great rise, average drop, great curve, very good screw, and fair change. If I counted that she threw all the pitches at different speeds she would have been throwing 15 different pitches, not including a fastball that she quit throwing in games at 14. For her college career she averaged 7.8 K's per 7 innings. Her highest was 10.6 her soph year. The last time a gun was put on her was in her junior year in HS. She was throwing a legit 63 mph. I did clock her once with a real police radar gun when she just turned 14. She was throwing 59-60 mph at that time. Never had a gun on her in college. By then it was all about movement, not speed.

At 12U there are very few pitchers who can legitimately make the ball move in all four directions. It takes a year to learn how to really throw a REAL breaking pitch so that it ends up where you want it most of the time. Not a spinny fastball at a spot. My daughter learned her pitches in this order. Rise from 12-13. Drop 13-14. Curve 14-15. Screw 16-17. She also worked on several different changes through the years with varying success. During the last two years of HS and through college she would work on two different pitches each time she practiced. Before a tournament she would work on them all throwing a simulated game with me calling balls and strikes. It worked well for her. It kept her pitches sharp and it also helped with her ability to move from pitch to pitch during a game. It also helped with having to make adjustments on the fly during a game.

Speed is great. Movement great. Changing speeds is great. When you have a pitcher who can do all three you have a pitcher, not a thrower. The final piece to being successful in the circle is knowing which pitch to throw a hitter to get the result you want in a given situation. Too many coaches at the younger levels who call the pitches have no idea how to control a hitter to get the needed results in different game situations. Too many of them call pitches like there are no runners on base.

[Tucson]

I tend to agree with Sparky.

MLB doesn't talk about a guy having 10 pitches. They have 3-4.

I am busy watching IL. government continue to implode. That is my home state and DH retired from IL. politics about 5 years ago.

[Clean_up]

We keep missing the original post, how many pitches should a 12 have and avg speed. Obviously, there are so many different opinions, different pitching coach methods and no "right" way to teach. Every kid is different, coordination level, work ethic and abilities all vary and just because your DD throws/threw 3, doesn't mean if another DD can throw five or six that they are bragging, pumping their team/kid or a liar.

I think it's safe to say that 3-4 pitches seems to be the avg, but I think if a kid has more than that, that's okay too.

Mowatt's fingers were taped up and hurting from throwing the curve so many games, and had to rely on that AWESOME change-up. Mowatt also throws a drop and rise. She didn't just use the CU after a set-up pitch either, I watched her throw 5 straight, 3-in a row for K no set-up at all - batter just froze watching all the way. It was a beautiful thing to watch!

Also, everyone is rght about movement. No point in throwing a pitch if it doesn't have the correct spin or movement; if it doesn't move correctly you can take it off your pitch list or keep working it until it does...

[TXfastpitchsoftball]

Most great major league pitchers rely on two major league pitches and a third pitch that wouldn't get them recruited to a Div. II school. The third pitch is almost never in a hittable part of the zone. I am astonished at the number of kids who show up at MLB's spring training without even an average changeup, for example.

There is no such thing as a rise ball at 12-13 years old. Laws of physics say so. She might drop her shoulder and throw the ball up, but it is not moving upwards because of spin at any time until she is throwing near or over 60 mph.

You left off knuckleball. Haven't seen many, but I've seen enough to include it. I think you will start to see more in the next five or so years as some of the younger kids work their way into the college ranks.

[Sam]

Most great major league pitchers rely on two major league pitches and a third pitch that wouldn't get them recruited to a Div. II school. The third pitch is almost never in a hittable part of the zone. I am astonished at the number of kids who show up at MLB's spring training without even an average changeup, for example.

There is no such thing as a rise ball at 12-13 years old. Laws of physics say so. She might drop her shoulder and throw the ball up, but it is not moving upwards because of spin at any time until she is throwing near or over 60 mph.

You left off knuckleball. Haven't seen many, but I've seen enough to include it. I think you will start to see more in the next five or so years as some of the younger kids work their way into the college ranks.

No rise ball moves upwards...its impossible for a human to do it....it does drop less than a pitch with less backspin. A high fastball (pretend riseball) can be just as effective for a 10 year old as it can for a 22 year old.

[TXfastpitchsoftball]

No rise ball moves upwards...its impossible for a human to do it....it does drop less than a pitch with less backspin. A high fastball (pretend riseball) can be just as effective for a 10 year old as it can for a 22 year old.

Didn't intend to get into the "does it rise" debate. I agree that it doesn't "rise." I like the word "flatten out," but my experience is parents don't want to pay $50 an hour for their DDs to learn how to the throw the dreaded "flatten out ball."

[AM Softball]

Wow, I cannot disagee more. Do you have daughters that pitched? Just curious

Please help me out!!

I have two 12u players that have the same pitching coach, both have an arsenal of eight pitches. Both have control problems and if a strike is needed the fastball is not an option. One of the parents told me that the pitching coach told them that in college the pitchers rarely throw fastballs so it is more important that the pitchers work on their spins.

Maybe I'm behind the times or old school or just uneducated in this area, but shouldn't a pitcher master the proper form and mechanics before adding more pitches? Secondly, how could a one hour lesson with a 10, 11 or 12 year old cover so much? Lastly, if a young pitcher only throws junk at such an early age what effect does that have on the kids arm?
Please share you thoughts.

Just another perspective.

1. Some college pitchers DO throw fastballs and location can be just as effective as movement if you hit your spots or hit the batters weak spots. Fastballs can also set up other pitches so I think this depends on who you ask. I do know pitcers that do not throw fastballs as well; it depends on the coach.
2. 10U/12U growing girls should learn proper FASTBALL mechanics before they learn pitches. You can teach a change because the mechanics are fairly similar but they need the good mechanics FIRST: balance, leg drive, wrist snaps, etc. If they don't have this, the other pitches will be difficult to teach
3. A pitcher needs a good fastball, good change (or off speed pitch) and a few mastered pitches. Then add the others if they can handle them. MOST pitchers are not complete. Most are good rise ball pitchers but struggle with the drop and visa versa. I know Olympic players that do not throw 6 pitches well. They throw what they are successful with and use the others to set up those pitches they throw well. Cat and Lisa are two pitchers that I think are complete and this is why they are so good.

My experience: these coaches teach too much too soon and young players need repetition doing it correctly. If you start teaching them these other pitches before they can handle it, they get messed up. (for example you teach the turnover drop and now they turn their fastballs over, not realizing they are doing it)

We cannot teach 10-12 year olds like they are college pitchers because physically, mentally and emotionally, they are not the same. I believe this is the problem many advanced instructors have. They teach them all these pitches and then you have to go back, and reteach the stuff they have already mastered, which can mess them up even more.

Also, a true way to tell if the pitch REALLY works is the spin yet coaches don't take the time to teach the correct spin. I cannot tell you how many girls say they have a curve but the ball does't even spin right. If the ball doesn't spin right, it is impossible to make it move right, therefore, their so called curve is really an outside fastball, not a curve.

Lastly, someone said all pitching coaches know the kids get bored so they teach them a bunch of pitches?? HUH?? This is NOT true and even college pitchers work on mechanics in the fall. The CSUF coach told me she only let her pitchers throw fast and change in the fall until they could master hitting their spots so that is a TOP pitcher (played at UCLA) and coach that is saying this. They should not get bored when mastering important skills. If a child is bored with multiplication facts and doesn't learn them, then how can they do the math when it becomes harder? There MUST be a good foundation.

Just my opinion!

Actually, AM, you should try reading my post...you might learn something..this is actually what I wrote:

"A smart pitching coach will teach younger pitchers different pitches in order to keep their minds on what they are doing, to make it more fun for the young lady, and to differ the movement of the arm/wrist/shoulder. If a 10 year old comes to lessons to throw 85 fastballs and 15 changeups...she gets bored...who wouldn't? But if she throws 40 FB, 15 changeups, and 8 pitches each of 6 different pitches....it keeps her attention. The pitching coach knows full well that the kid isn't going to throw these pitches in a game....and you get to find out which ones she throws well. Nobody is dumb enough to call 8 different pitches in a game....are they???"

Now you may equate the focus of a nine or 10 year old with that of a 21 year old....I choose not to....nor do I equate smart pitching coaches with all pitching coaches...my experience tells me that 10 year olds want to have fun....a 21 year old, whose paid education depends on how well she performs on a ball field, has a different level of focus and different goals. I don't remember the last time CSUF went to the WCWS....